Scott H Young

The Interview Method: Why Our Assumptions About Success Are Often Wrong


I love people who say they “know” what they need to do, they just don’t do it. These are the same people who claim that without credentials, connections or whatever they happen to lack, success is impossible.

The truth is, most people put almost zero effort into figuring out how success actually works in their field, so you can outclass the majority, just by doing a little research.

“All Employers Care About is a Degree”

A few days after my MIT Challenge completed, it was picked up by the social media website, reddit. While many of the comments were supportive of the challenge, a number disparaged that the concept was nice but that, without a real degree, the knowledge was almost useless.

Interestingly, HR recruiters also responded to the thread and they told a different story. Many of them claimed that, contrary to the students’ expectations, they were very interested in hiring someone who was aggressively self-educated. One from a large firm even offered to set me up with a job interview.

I’m certainly not saying degrees are useless, or even that employers would make no distinction between my challenge and a real degree. But what amazed me was that nobody had actually done any research. The assumption was that all employers cared about was a degree, even though that was being contradicted in the exact same discussion forum.

You Don’t Know What it Takes to Be Successful (and That’s Okay)

I’m picking on these commenters, but in reality I was brainwashed with many of the same lies. I thought that software companies, particularly big firms, would never make exceptions on degree requirements, and that they wanted new hires to have mastered the particular technologies they use.

The difference, in my case, is that realizing I didn’t understand what employers care about, I decided to ask someone who works for a big software firm. I was surprised to learn that he had several colleagues who worked as programmers without computer science degrees—one even studied music.

I was even more surprised to hear that he said particular mastery of a technology wasn’t their main hiring criteria. They expected to do a lot of training internally, so overall programming ability mattered more than skills with a particular language.

After just a single interview, I can’t say whether these trends are the exception or the norm. However, even after just an hour of talking to someone, I was already beginning to see that many of the assumptions I had were wrong.

From Job Hunting to Customer Insight

When I first started selling ebooks and courses, the popular wisdom was: more is better. People wanted more content, more features and more material. Believing this, I made sure when I built my course I included nearly eight hours of audio and video content.

Therefore I was in for a big surprise, when I interviewed actual customers. It turned out that most of them had watched less than a third of the videos, even when they said they loved the content.

I changed this when I re-released Learning on Steroids. I recorded short videos, sometimes only a couple minutes, that honed in on the key ideas.

Interviewing actual customers turned up dozens of little improvements that would have gone untested had I stuck with my assumptions.

Use The Interview Method to Kill Faulty Assumptions

The big problem both with the students who thought all employers cared about were degrees and my product, was that we both thought we “knew” how it worked. Our assumptions could have been easily fixed, but we never put the small effort into fixing them.

The interview method is a way around this problem. You can kill a lot of bad ideas, just by talking to people who have a better understanding of how the field works.

The steps are simple:

  1. Identify at least five people who are moderately successful in your field.
  2. Reach out to them and ask if you can buy them lunch.
  3. Meet up with them and get them to share their thoughts.

Yes, some people might be too busy or not have an interest in helping you. For that reason I also suggest picking people who aren’t likely to be getting tons of similar requests. A mid-level manager will probably consider your request for advice more seriously than Bill Gates.

Even if you do get some polite declines, researching and contacting a dozen or so people in this way will likely yield at least a couple interviews. The reason most people fail at this is that they never ask, not because it’s difficult.

I also suggest not directly asking for advice. Hindsight bias clouds many direct advice-giving efforts, so useful information ends up buried in useless platitudes. Instead, ask the person to share their story, or if they’re in a position of influence, what they look for when evaluating potential employees or clients.

Repeating this process several times will give you a road map of how success works in your field. This doesn’t mean you should blindly follow their example, sometimes you may spot faster avenues that the majority of successful people missed. But at least understanding how success typically works gives you an enormous edge, even if you opt for more creative solutions.

Case Study: How Do You Become a Successful Architect?

Architecture is a notoriously difficult field, and when my good friend Vat graduated almost none of his peers were able to find work in the post-recession economy.

Even after finding a job, his prospects weren’t looking particularly good. Pay is typically low, even for people with decades of experience and graduate degrees. Adding to the difficulty, he was hoping to one day open his own firm, something few people succeed at.

Following a conversation with Maneesh Sethi, regarding his own use of the interview technique, he decided to use it in understanding the career path of successful architects. He started a blog interviewing local architects about their thoughts on the profession.

Not only did he get hours of valuable advice on managing the difficulties of the career, the interviews also led to dozens of high-value contacts, job offers and referrals.

This is all during a time when most of Vat’s peers have either given up looking for work in the field, or gone back to school to delay life for another few years.

Why This Method Allows for Easy Wins

The interview approach is incredibly valuable for the advice it yields. Knowing how success works in your field is essential, even if none of the people you interview ever offer any material help.

But the method is more powerful because in reaching out to people, in order to learn from them, you often form relationships that turn out to be valuable later. People like people who are eager to learn from them, and have the discipline to apply it.

When I look at my own email response habits, I see I’m much more willing to respond to a blogger politely asking for advice, than someone callously asking for me to link to them.

Why the Interview Method Often Beats Reading Books

The interview method is often better than just reading a lot of books or expert opinions on the subject. Pundits like me have different constraints for writing than just merely giving accurate advice—we’re also need to be interesting, entertaining and original. This means great career or business books may leave out the boring, but essential details to be successful at something.

The other advantage of the interview method is specificity. Because you’re picking people to interview that are nearer to your situation, you’ll be able to learn a lot more details that don’t generalize well.

By interviewing customers, I learned which specific modules should be highlighted, something I could never learn reading a business author. By speaking with an actual hiring manager at a big software firm, I could know exactly how they conduct their interviews, something I wouldn’t know just reading a newspaper article about employment trends.

Most people don’t know what they don’t know. Doing several interviews to figure out how a field works can save months of effort and be the difference between success and failure.


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20 Responses to “The Interview Method: Why Our Assumptions About Success Are Often Wrong”

  1. I think the Interview Method and it’s motivating problem are both symptoms of a more general problem: people often act based on their opinions and biased as opposed to evidence. The solution is to back up major decisions and beliefs with solid evidence. Interviews are one form of evidence (though they might be coming from people acting without any evidence themselves, so you have to be careful). Another form is peer-reviewed research or personal experience. This works for better for areas on which there is actual research of course. A common example is nutrition, health and weight loss where there are lots of opinions and “solutions” few of which are based on proper evidence.

  2. Nate Anglin says:

    I agree with Shrutarshi, especially about fitness. Everyone seems to have vague understanding of what it is but will be quick to tell you whats best. The best people to learn from are the ones who have results they can show. None of this hypothetical bull gets us anywhere. I love the saying Assume = makes an “ass” out of “u” and “me”.

  3. Adam Isom says:

    >Identify at least five people who are moderately successful in your field.
    &
    >some people might be too busy or not have an interest in helping you

    I would just like to add that people should live in the city to ensure they have the opportunity to identify those people! :P

  4. Mister says:

    Recently had an ‘interview’ with a person who’s really similar to me (same major, but he’s senior to me). Lots of useful advice on getting into research as an undergrad in my major with my interests I wouldn’t have gotten of some general ‘how to do undergrad research’ website.

  5. […] 十年前,MIT决定开放它的所有课程资料。当时的资料还很有限,大都仅仅包含讲义和作业。之后,许多名校陆续加入了这一行列。前几年,开放式课程大放异彩,从哈佛幸福课到耶鲁公正 课,从斯坦福iOS应用设计课到麻省理工颁布证书的电路课,开放式课程的内容和形式都有了长足的进步。字幕翻译也遍地开花。如今,反倒是学习者有资格变得挑剔:我更想学麻省理工的算法课,还是普林斯顿的算法课?我是要把时间花在人文社科课程上,还是选择在自己的专业上更进一步?甚至,开放课程不再是闲暇时的锦上添花,它可能成为一个人新事业的起点。用一年时间学完麻省理工计算机系全部本科课程的Scott Young,收到了业内某知名大公司的面试邀请;在免费编程课程站点Codecademy上,屡屡传出有人经过自学课程,得到工作机会或者开发出了自己的应用赚钱的好消息。 […]

  6. calvin torra says:

    Hi Scott. Love the posts and the general theme. On your journey to learn computer science. What learning materials did you use. I’m currently in the analysis paralysis phase not knowing where to start, what syllabus to follow etc. I’m trying to learn python.

    Cheers

  7. Barbara says:

    offtopic:
    Hi Steve!
    I have no idea how I found you, but I’m glad I did! (sucks it was too late to sign up for your anual video course. (not like I have the money, poor med student here, but oh well))
    I reaaaally like your blog! As I said, I’m a medical student, and as you may know, in South America december, christman = sun, beaches, vacation! hehe so I’m almost done with my second year. The truth is, it’s been awful, horrible, unbereable. The amount of information you’re supposed to learn in such a short period of time, plus being in class ALL DAY (8 am-8pm) has been overwhelming. Yeah, to the point I’ve thought that I wasn’t made for this, that I hate it and that I want a normal life. But then I go to the hospital, talk to the pacients for five minutes and realize this is what I want. So, I found you. I only have only one more final exam (molecular biology, fun!), then summer break, and after that… 3rd year. Ugh. The most difficult one.
    So my plan is to try to apply the basics I’ve found in your blog to my final exam, and then, master all the techniques during summer, so when school starts again, I’m a pro and I’m in control.(and let’s see if i can man make the time to find a job too, so sick of being broke! nobody I know has been able to, but hey, impossible is nothing, right? ;) )

    My classmates say I’m a fool for trying something new n a final, that this is not the time for experiments. But the truth is that I’m SO tired that I wouldn’t be able to pass it with rote memory even if my life depended on it. (Oh and by the way we even made a bet to try to motivate ourselves for this last one, the winners win (ofcourse) something, and the losers are probably gonna do something embarrasing, plus giving the prize to the winners). So I have all my faith in your method! I have to win! (and of course pass the class or… yeah, not even gonna think about it).

    Oh shoot, this was supposed to be a short comment to thank you for your free material for those of us who can’t pay for the full course, and to congratulate you for your achievements!! You’re amazing :) !!

    Have a wonderful day!
    A fan from Chile.

  8. Marie says:

    Hi Scott, great post as usual. I think an important point to add is not to just keep bombarding the interviewee with questions – sometimes the best advice comes totally unsolicited, or when they go off on an unrelated train of thought.

  9. seld says:

    “nobody had actually done any research.”

    *snort*
    Or rather you haven’t – Organizational Psychology is full of this research.

  10. Scott Young says:

    seid,

    Any academic field is going to necessarily look for the most general principles, not the specific ones which are highly variable, which is exactly what I warned against in the ending section. Organizational psychology is great, but it can’t fill in those details which is exactly the research this method aims to fill in.

    Marie,

    Conversation not interrogation. I completely agree.

    -Scott

  11. nicole says:

    Thank you so much for this wonderful blog and for all the amazing information you give us!!! I’m a mommy to two young girls and also taking online classes. God has blessed you with this gift of learning. You inspire me to be better….to go farther, faster.

    Thanks again for all the time you put into this blog and all its wonderful material. You make a difference by helping others using the abilities given to you.

    Merry Christmas.

    -Nicole

  12. Arjan says:

    How can you tell whether somebody’s really successful? In my exerperience people are fond of creating a positive – but not necessarily realistic – image of themselves and what they’re doing. Sometimes you can hear people boasting about their success and a while later you hear through the grapevine that they’re laid off or that their bussiness has gone broke. How can you see through polished “success stories”?

  13. Hey Scott,

    Great article, and I’ve found what you’re saying to be true in my life. For instance, I recently worked for a big accounting firm in the consulting department where I was hired to do financial analysis and technology audits, but because I told them I have been programming from a young age, they put me IN CHARGE of fixing up a proprietary CMS for the company.

    And the best part: I’m a BUSINESS major. Never took any programming classes in college, yet my skills were what mattered in the situation. They didn’t care that I was a business major.

    In fact, I got a D in an Accounting class..and I STILL got the job working at the public accounting firm. This stuff doesn’t matter as much as people think it does…as long as you have the skills.

    Also, regarding the Interview Method, I highly recommend reading ‘Never Eat Alone’ by Keith Ferazzi. It’s an amazing book that goes into detail on how to connect with the people that you want to be friends with. I read this a couple of months ago, and I wish I read it years ago..would’ve saved me some trouble.

    But seriously, good stuff.

  14. […] 03. 31 mind blowing VFX breakdowns 04. CentOS/RHEL : install vnstat network traffic monitor 05. The interview method : why our assumptions about success are often wrong? 06. Peluang sebenar pemain industri kreatif Malaysia 07. Top 30 command examples for sys/network […]

  15. Barbara says:

    A-. you rock.

  16. kenzilisa says:

    I got hired at my current job as a trainer even tho I didn’t have the required training experience. They couldn’t find someone with the necessary experience who would accept the offered salary, and figured they could train me. I was told by many people that I’d never find a job without experience. Fortunately I didn’t listen to those people. And I think that this is becoming more common.

  17. I completely agree. I have gotten the best results from direct advice sought out from people already in my field. I have also gotten the best results from interviewing MANY people. Their opinions are similar on many issues, but certain people will fill in the gaps that others leave and the constant repetition of the same ideas beats it into your head. Seasoned vets are excited to warn you of misconceptions and little known truths…especially if you’re a rookie. They also commend your eagerness, which is not to be forgotten when that entry level position opens up. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Great post as always. Had me from first to last word. –Keyara

  18. […] could apply elsewhere. Challenge your assumptions. Do you think you know how to get really good or assume that school is necessary to do it? You may be […]

  19. […] The Interview Method: Why Our Assumptions About Success Are Often Wrong « Scott H Young […]

  20. […] 十年前,MIT决定开放它的所有课程资料。当时的资料还很有限,大都仅仅包含讲义和作业。之后,许多名校陆续加入了这一行列。前几年,开放式课程大放异彩,从哈佛幸福课到耶鲁公正 课,从斯坦福iOS应用设计课到麻省理工颁布证书的电路课,开放式课程的内容和形式都有了长足的进步。字幕翻译也遍地开花。如今,反倒是学习者有资格变得挑剔:我更想学麻省理工的算法课,还是普林斯顿的算法课?我是要把时间花在人文社科课程上,还是选择在自己的专业上更进一步?甚至,开放课程不再是闲暇时的锦上添花,它可能成为一个人新事业的起点。用一年时间学完麻省理工计算机系全部本科课程的Scott Young,收到了业内某知名大公司的面试邀请;在免费编程课程站点Codecademy上,屡屡传出有人经过自学课程,得到工作机会或者开发出了自己的应用赚钱的好消息。 […]

Debate is fine, flaming is not. Pretend that this comment form is a discussion taking place in my house. That means I enjoy constructive criticism and polite suggestions. Personal attacks, insults and all-purpose nastiness will be removed especially if it is directed at other readers.

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